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No start after EI conversion

B

Brian60950

Member
2n, front mount.

Also did 12 volt conversion.

Got spark on all 4, enough compression to blow my thumb off the hole when cranking.

Plug wires were labeled prior to removing from distributor.

Rotor points at terminal for #4 in distributor cap when I believe #4 to be at TDC following compression stroke. (Hole is above valves so I just have to feel for air pressure with my thumb while turning the engine over by hand)

Also has gas.

Cranks but doesn't even try to pop. No half-starts, no backfires, nothing. Notbeven while spraying starting fluid into the carb.

Any ideas?

At this point the only solution I can think of requires a sledge hammer but I can't find it.
 
(quoted from post at 19:01:28 04/24/17) What is your voltage at the top of the coil?

What EI unit are you using?

How many resistors are you using?
75 Tips
Click to expand...

Coil supply voltage is low. Like 1.2 or something. Just remembering from last week when I checked it, prior to starting on rewiring all the lights and stuff.

EI unit is Pertronix, part number 1247 (I think), the cheaper of the two 12 volt EI kits sold on here. The other kit uses a hot shot coil or something.

Using both the original Ford resistor and the one supplied with the 12 volt kit.

Using 6 volt coil because the 12 volt one supplied with the kit does not fit properly atop the distributor. I'd need to stuff a washer or two under the bail to hold it down tightly. This is why I used both resistors.

It clearly has spark though. Enough I can see it clearly with my bright shop lighting, and I still got a small zap while holding the rubber spark plug boot with rubber handled channel locks, with my other hand on the starter button in front of the shifter. I can't imagine that spark being too weak to not ignite the fuel even while I'm cranking it and spraying ether into the carb with the throttle wide open.
 
(quoted from post at 19:25:29 04/24/17) It won't fire the module with coil voltage
that low. Test it again and confirm it.
75 Tips
Click to expand...
12.42 battery

12.42 supplied to top of coil, then I rotated the engine by hand a little bit to get it to where the electronic points would be closed, and checked it again and it's 1.88 volts.
 
Since you have done the 12 volt conversion, take the resistor off, go to Napa and get a 12 volt coil, part #IC14SB, I have this coil on 4 gas burning tractors with electronic ignition, never a problem...
a158223.jpg

a158224.jpg
 
He might have a problem with a side coil on a frontmount. Unless he wants to buy a conversion kit for that too.
 
"I don't get how it can have battery voltage at the top while using two resistors."

On a points system, you will see the same thing; battery voltage, points open, about half that when they are closed.
You won't see any effect from the resistors unless you have a load on the circuit, the load being the module. That's why it drops to 1.2 volts. Which, in my non-expert opinion, is too low. I don't know what it is supposed to be. You can probably remove one or both resistors and it will run. But you could also possibly burn it up by doing that. That's why I suggested that you call Pertronix.

" Or how it can have spark but not fire."

You need about 22kv to get a spark. You can see and feel a lot less voltage than that.
75 Tips
 
(quoted from post at 20:00:07 04/24/17) He might have a problem with a side coil on a frontmount. Unless he wants to buy a conversion kit for that too.
Click to expand...

It's the same 6V coil that was on the tractor (and working) before the conversion.

This is the conversion kit:

http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/F...Kit-Front-Mount-Distributor_8NE10300ALTC.html

The instructions said the supplied 12V coil required the supplied resistor, .. but also said the supplied 12V coil was 1 ohm, ... I measured it at 2.8 ohms. There is no part number on that 12 volt coil supplied in that kit. So I didn't use it. Instead I used the resistor, but my old 6V coil.

This is the EI kit:

http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/F...version-Kit-12-volt-negative-ground_1247.html
 
The coil isn't your problem. Your problem is most likely too much resistance in the circuit which is resulting in low voltage. But I'm guessing. Pertronix will know exactly what the voltage should be. Or run a jumper wire from the battery directly to the coil bypassing the resistors and see what happens.

If it runs, call me a genius.

If you let the smoke out of it, you can still call me a genius for suggesting that you call Pertronix first. ;)

And if you call them.......do ask why their 1 ohm resistor measures 2.8 ohms..........
 
On a points system, you will see the same thing; battery voltage, points open, about half that when they are closed.
You won't see any effect from the resistors unless you have a load on the circuit, the load being the module. That's why it drops to 1.2 volts. Which, in my non-expert opinion, is too low. I don't know what it is supposed to be. You can probably remove one or both resistors and it will run. But you could also possibly burn it up by doing that. That's why I suggested that you call Pertronix.
Click to expand...
Yeah I'll call Pertronix tomorrow. Hopefully there's a part number on the box.

Just for the hell of it here's a 30 second sketch of how I've got it wired. As you can see, my artistic talents are unparalleled. :D

48140.jpg
 
Brian, the spark needs to jump a 1/4" gap or more to be able to fire a spark plug under compression.Try removing the white resister from the ignition circuit and just use the OEM ballast.Or try the 12 volt coil without it.
 
(quoted from post at 21:02:50 04/24/17) Brian, the spark needs to jump a 1/4" gap or more to be able to fire a spark plug under compression.Try removing the white resister from the ignition circuit and just use the OEM ballast.Or try the 12 volt coil without it.
Click to expand...
I think I'll try the 12 volt coil without the additional resistor first. That could possibly save me the inconvenience of communicating with humans verbally over the phone. :D

Next week though, or whenever my ignition wire terminals arrive. There's no sense in screwing around with it while all 4 of my spark plug wires are hanging beside the distributor with no terminals on them.
 
Move the red wire feeding the module from the sresistor to the opposite end of resistor, where ign sw is connected. That is how your Pertronix instruction sheet shows it & how it needs to be!

Not proper way to wire ammeter either, but it will function that way....a subject for another day.
 
(quoted from post at 22:26:48 04/24/17)
(quoted from post at 21:02:50 04/24/17) Brian, the spark needs to jump a 1/4" gap or more to be able to fire a spark plug under compression.Try removing the white resister from the ignition circuit and just use the OEM ballast.Or try the 12 volt coil without it.
Click to expand...
I think I'll try the 12 volt coil without the additional resistor first. That could possibly save me the inconvenience of communicating with humans verbally over the phone. :D

Next week though, or whenever my ignition wire terminals arrive. There's no sense in screwing around with it while all 4 of my spark plug wires are hanging beside the distributor with no terminals on them.
Click to expand...
ust stuff the wires in the 4 holes....a good spark will jump the gap!
 

The module needs full battery voltage At the OEM resistor move the red wire to mod to the switch side of the oem resistor.

Using a OEM front mount coil use the OEM resistor and any other resistor that would normally be used to use a 6V coil on a 12V system are a 12V coil that requires a reistor. I use the OEM resistor with a OEM style front mt coil with EI.

Get a Spark tester its used on conventional and EI. A spark test should be mandatory on all spark issues.

http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1170719&highlight=tester
 
Are you sure you are measuring VOLTS and not OHMS? Frankly, I don't see a need to run an EI in a low compression engine...been seeing a lot of EI issues here lately. Some think a 12 volt conversion and/or changing to EI will fix what starting/running issues they have. Just saying, not condemning 12 volts if done correctly and for the right reasons.

Tim
 

Don't forget that if you've been cranking for a while without firing, you should change the spark plugs. If you've fouled out the plugs, you'll be chasing your tail to get it to run.
 
Are you sure you are measuring VOLTS and not OHMS? Frankly, I don't see a need to run an EI in a low compression engine...been seeing a lot of EI issues here lately. Some think a 12 volt conversion and/or changing to EI will fix what starting/running issues they have. Just saying, not condemning 12 volts if done correctly and for the right reasons.

Tim
Click to expand...
ep. Volts.

EI change was because the original points were shot, and I ordered new ones and they turned out to be Chinese garbage and took a week to get here and I ran out of patience.

Have you noticed the spark issues with points...
Click to expand...
ot really.

Points were replaced with EI the same time as the 12 volt conversion. As long as the hood was off I wanted to get caught up on decades worth of maintenance.

Before I messed with it, if the outside temp was below around 20 degrees, though it would crank, it wouldn't fire at all. Not even with the intake removed and spraying ether. But it would start up immediately if I threw some more power at it with the charger.

My theory was that there's a REASON the automotive world switched over to 12 volts at some point, .. and in my case the battery being cold, with the starter load on the battery there wasn't enough juice left over to make a spark.

My headlights (mounted on fender) were pathetic even though they were 6 volt bulbs. I cannot find 6 volt LEDs either.

When plowing snow at night, I'd have to crank up the voltage on that little screw on the back of the generator to compensate for the lights, otherwise they'd drain the battery. 7 volts with the lights on, half throttle is where I'd set it.

Then I'd forget about it and be running it in the daytime and when I shut it off, I'd hear bubbling in the battery. So I figured it's time to replace my 70 year old electrical system with 60 year old technology.


-----------

I ordered better spark plug wire terminals for the distributor ends...

I got an e-mail with FedEx tracking number.

Point of origin is Sparks, NV.

Is that irony or an omen?
 
(quoted from post at 17:49:07 04/25/17) Nice story, but did you move the red wire feeding the module?
Click to expand...
No I did not.

Because it's actually wired up the way you said to.

I drew the sketch wrong.

Actually I just remember thinking the red wire needs straight battery, post switch but pre-resistor. So I'm thinking it's on the left of those two posts instead of the right, .. but I'll go check. I gotta go out there anyway because the wife drove her car into town and back without realizing I'd left it on the slow charger overnight, ... with the freakin' hood open too..... I need to go inspect the damage.
 

Have you noticed the spark issues with points... That reply was to the EI haters
:D

One quick check is to remove the coil and put a test light hooked to ground on the brass screw the coil thingy contacts. Spin it over does it blinks the light if so the EI is doing its thang its notcher problem.

Even better that that use a automotive sealed beam head light it has about the same resistance as a coil if it turns the headlight on and off and its bright the EI module taint yer problem.

For EI hatters just remove EI in this post and insert points.

Even better that that use a automotive sealed beam head light it has about the same resistance as a coil if it turns the headlight on and off and its bright points taint yer problem are the wiring or grund as far as that goes. You would have to bypass the resistor if used.

Last week I ran across a weak spark condition with a seal beam headlight I confirmed.

1) wiring was good
2) points plate and distributor ground was good.
3) points were good.

I installed a know good coil still weak spark

:cry:

Whats left if you guess condenser go to the head of the class it was the first bad one I know for sure was bad. A new condenser fixed it (one I had laying around). The bad the customer had put two new ones on it :shock:

He had a 12V system using a 6V coil with a resistor that I see no problem with. Its a process of elimination EI are points the same diagnostics apply. EI hatters need to pull there head out of there arse if for nuttin else they may learn sum'N that apply s to both.

Faced with either sit down eliminate don't let voltage checks on a unloaded system confuse you load it then check voltage. You can bypass every thing in the system and confirm wiring/voltage other than the condenser are coil.

By all means get a damm spark checker :x
 
"One quick check is to remove the coil and put a test light [u:12c8189931]hooked to ground[/u:12c8189931] on the brass screw the coil thingy contacts. Spin it over does it blinks the light if so the EI is doing its thang its notcher problem.

Even better that that use a automotive sealed beam head light it has about the same resistance as a coil if it turns the headlight on and off and its bright the EI module taint yer problem. "

Really?
:wink:
 
(quoted from post at 20:10:01 04/27/17) "One quick check is to remove the coil and put a test light [u:9a31045e86]hooked to ground[/u:9a31045e86] on the brass screw the coil thingy contacts. Spin it over does it blinks the light if so the EI is doing its thang its notcher problem.

Even better that that use a automotive sealed beam head light it has about the same resistance as a coil if it turns the headlight on and off and its bright the EI module taint yer problem. "

Really?
:wink:
Click to expand...

WELL NO :cry: I should have said it pulls about the same amps :shock:
 
Well I bypassed the 12v conversion kit's resistor using a jumper wire.

Hit the starter with the intention to spray ether as soon as it started cranking but it fired up immediately.

For about 3 seconds, then died.

Hood is still off, no gas tank hooked up, hence the ether.

I ran it again for another 3 seconds with one quick spray of ether just for the hell of it, then after it died I turned the key off.

With the "points" closed, I was getting 5 point something volts at the top of the coil with the extra resistor bypassed.

That's with the 6 volt coil on a 12 volt system, on bypass it's only using the OEM resistor.


Tomorrow I guess I'll put the hood 'n' stuff back on, gas it up and see if the alternator works.
 
(quoted from post at 22:59:23 04/30/17) This pic was taken while the engine was running.

48419.jpg


48420.jpg


I don't get it...
Click to expand...
xcess current. Why? Because of bad info/advice generated from hearsay &/or miss-application application of good advice (good for some application other than yours) that this thread is full of. It may very well be that your supplied ceramic resistor is too large, but total deletion is not the way to correct that, if such is the case. The right way is to select an additional resistor value which will result in ~4 amperes, but less than 5 amperes through the coil when distributor is stopped so as to keep the module "on" (point closed like condition). You never said (as far as I could find) what the primary resistance of your 6v coil measures & even if you did, I wouldn't trust such measurement of that low value resistance (possibly less than 1/2 Ohm). As a possibility, let us assume that the coil is 0.47 Ohm & the OEM resistor is 1 Ohm, for a total of 1.47. 12.5 volts/1.47= 8.5 amperes and that will make for a glowing red resistor, short coil life, and short module life. All this is why I say, select resistance to result in ~4 amperes & less than 5 for steady state coil current. HINT: this will very likely be about 1.25 Ohms. Another point to mention is the those add-on resistors sold under the PN 10306 have been found to range about by as much as 3 to 1.....which in my book is useless.
 
Excess current. Why? Because of bad info/advice generated from hearsay &/or miss-application application of good advice (good for some application other than yours) that this thread is full of. It may very well be that your supplied ceramic resistor is too large, but total deletion is not the way to correct that, if such is the case. The right way is to select an additional resistor value which will result in ~4 amperes, but less than 5 amperes through the coil when distributor is stopped so as to keep the module "on" (point closed like condition). You never said (as far as I could find) what the primary resistance of your 6v coil measures & even if you did, I wouldn't trust such measurement of that low value resistance (possibly less than 1/2 Ohm). As a possibility, let us assume that the coil is 0.47 Ohm & the OEM resistor is 1 Ohm, for a total of 1.47. 12.5 volts/1.47= 8.5 amperes and that will make for a glowing red resistor, short coil life, and short module life. All this is why I say, select resistance to result in ~4 amperes & less than 5 for steady state coil current. HINT: this will very likely be about 1.25 Ohms. Another point to mention is the those add-on resistors sold under the PN 10306 have been found to range about by as much as 3 to 1.....which in my book is useless.
Click to expand...
don't know how to measure amps with the meter unless you pass the whole current through the meter?

The ammeter on the dash was showing something like -20 to -25 while running for some reason, though 14 something volts across the battery posts.

I might have the panel ammeter wired backwards. The posts were not labeled and there were no instructions that came with it. Supposedly it's a replacement for the OEM but the OEM ammeter had no wires connected to it at all, and one of it's posts had long ago snapped off. With gauge installed in the dash right side up, I ran the alternator to the terminal on the right (carburetor side of tractor) and battery on the left, clutch pedal side.

Anyway if the amperage exceeds 10 amps it'll blow up my multi-meter.

Measuring ohms, the damn thing shows 0.8 or so when I hold the leads together. My dad said there's supposed to be a screw on the meter to zero it out but this is a cheap 5 dollar Harbor Freight multimeter and it doesn't have one. So if I just add 0.8 to the value, I assume it's somewhat accurate.

Tomorrow I guess I'll try the 12 volt coil which was giving me 2.8 ohms, including the extra 0.8 because of the crappy meter.



Will the resistance value on the tractor's original resistor have changed when it was glowing orange?


This would be a lot simpler if I knew what total resistance I need. Coil resistance plus additional resistor.

I'd tend to think a 12 volt coil made for a 12 volt system should be able to be wired directly to the ignition switch with no additional resistors required.
 
(quoted from post at 00:37:26 05/01/17)
Excess current. Why? Because of bad info/advice generated from hearsay &/or miss-application application of good advice (good for some application other than yours) that this thread is full of. It may very well be that your supplied ceramic resistor is too large, but total deletion is not the way to correct that, if such is the case. The right way is to select an additional resistor value which will result in ~4 amperes, but less than 5 amperes through the coil when distributor is stopped so as to keep the module "on" (point closed like condition). You never said (as far as I could find) what the primary resistance of your 6v coil measures & even if you did, I wouldn't trust such measurement of that low value resistance (possibly less than 1/2 Ohm). As a possibility, let us assume that the coil is 0.47 Ohm & the OEM resistor is 1 Ohm, for a total of 1.47. 12.5 volts/1.47= 8.5 amperes and that will make for a glowing red resistor, short coil life, and short module life. All this is why I say, select resistance to result in ~4 amperes & less than 5 for steady state coil current. HINT: this will very likely be about 1.25 Ohms. Another point to mention is the those add-on resistors sold under the PN 10306 have been found to range about by as much as 3 to 1.....which in my book is useless.
Click to expand...
don't know how to measure amps with the meter unless you pass the whole current through the meter?[color=red:7cf22da9a7]forget the dash ammeter for now as it not good enough for this task (if you want to work that, we can do later, but let us not muddy the waters now).
[/color:7cf22da9a7]
The ammeter on the dash was showing something like -20 to -25 while running for some reason, though 14 something volts across the battery posts.

I might have the panel ammeter wired backwards. The posts were not labeled and there were no instructions that came with it. Supposedly it's a replacement for the OEM but the OEM ammeter had no wires connected to it at all, and one of it's posts had long ago snapped off. With gauge installed in the dash right side up, I ran the alternator to the terminal on the right (carburetor side of tractor) and battery on the left, clutch pedal side.

Anyway if the amperage exceeds 10 amps it'll blow up my multi-meter.

Measuring ohms, the damn thing shows 0.8 or so when I hold the leads together. My dad said there's supposed to be a screw on the meter to zero it out but this is a cheap 5 dollar Harbor Freight multimeter and it doesn't have one. So if I just add 0.8 to the value, I assume it's somewhat accurate.

Tomorrow I guess I'll try the 12 volt coil which was giving me 2.8 ohms, including the extra 0.8 because of the crappy meter.



Will the resistance value on the tractor's original resistor have changed when it was glowing orange?[color=red:7cf22da9a7]yes. it will, as it is designed to increase resistance with temperature[/color:7cf22da9a7]


This would be a lot simpler if I knew what total resistance I need. Coil resistance plus additional resistor. [color=red:7cf22da9a7]didn't I just tell you that? Whatever it takes for 4-5 amperes. Now, I understand you want total Ohms, but I can't tell you that unless you can tell me the resistance of the red glowing resistor, which changes with temperature, at the operating conditions of 4-5 amperes. And you can't. From experience, I can say that is is ABOUT 0.5 to 0.6 Ohms, normal operating conditions. Your red one is ABOUT 1.7 Ohms. So, if you want 4.5 amperes at 13.8 volts (battery charging) and OEM resistance is 0.6 Ohms, then R= 13.8/4.5=3 Ohms total, less the 0.6=2.4 for coil plus extra resistance. So, if coil is 0.47 Ohms, the extra resistor is 1.9. If coil is 1.0, extra resistance is 1.4, etc., etc.
[/color:7cf22da9a7]
I'd tend to think a 12 volt coil made for a 12 volt system should be able to be wired directly to the ignition switch with no additional resistors required.[color=red:7cf22da9a7]in a perfect world! But square can front mount coils don't fit the "perfect world" and are "called" 6v or 12v and always need ballast resistance.[/color:7cf22da9a7][/b]
Click to expand...
 
Will the resistance value on the tractor's original resistor have changed when it was glowing orange?[color=red:6937b089d3]yes. it will, as it is designed to increase resistance with temperature[/color:6937b089d3]
Click to expand...
Yes I know that now, I've been digging through old threads. It's designed to have low resistance at first, to let more juice through during start-up when the starter is dogging the system, then warm up and increase resistance...

But what I meant was will cooking it with excess current until it turns ORANGE permanently damage it's resistance values? Initial and "warmed up" to whatever temperature "warmed up" means.


This would be a lot simpler if I knew what total resistance I need. Coil resistance plus additional resistor.
Click to expand...
[color=red:6937b089d3]didn't I just tell you that? Whatever it takes for 4-5 amperes. Now, I understand you want total Ohms, but I can't tell you that unless you can tell me the resistance of the red glowing resistor, which changes with temperature, at the operating conditions of 4-5 amperes. And you can't. From experience, I can say that is is ABOUT 0.5 to 0.6 Ohms, normal operating conditions. Your red one is ABOUT 1.7 Ohms. So, if you want 4.5 amperes at 13.8 volts (battery charging) and OEM resistance is 0.6 Ohms, then R= 13.8/4.5=3 Ohms total, less the 0.6=2.4 for coil plus extra resistance. So, if coil is 0.47 Ohms, the extra resistor is 1.9. If coil is 1.0, extra resistance is 1.4, etc., etc.
[/color:6937b089d3]
Click to expand...
I just read somewhere else that for a 12 volt system I should need 4 ohms total, if input voltage is 14.5 volts, and that should give 3.6 amps.

3-4 amps is the "good" range, anything more than 4 will eventually burn up the coil.

That falls in line with a thread on here I dug up from 2011 and another one from 2003.

4-5 amps probably won't over-volt too much.



According to something I read about the original ballast resistor, I'm guessing that right now if I go fire that thing up it'll have 7.25 amps running through it, based on the ballast resistor allegedly being 0.6 ohms, my 6V coil being 1.4 ohms and my charging voltage being 14.5.


I'm going to go see if I can hack stuff together to get 4 ohms total.

I have a 12 volt square can coil, brand new, and I can try the old round coil I bought last year for my F-100 for no reason. (Thought it was bad, ... it wasn't)
 
I just got a new multi-meter.

My Harbor Freight POS was showing 0.8 ohms when I touch the two leads together, .... I opened it up to see if there's a calibration screw inside but no. I put a new battery in it and now it's even worse, .. 2.8 with the test leads touching.

So the new one reads 0.1 ohms and if I spit on the probes, it'll actually zero out.


So I checked my 12 volt coil, ... 3 ohms.

The ballast resistor that's supposed to be 0.6 ohms at 68 degrees F is 0.5 at 60 degrees. Close enough. It supposedly goes up to 1 ohm when it "warms up".

That resistor that came with the 12 volt kit, .... 5 ohms. So if I'd followed it's instructions and used the 12 volt coil with it, it would be 8.6 ohms. What were they smoking?

Anyway so later I'm just going to take the 6V coil off and put the 12 volt one on, wired to only the ballast resistor. Oughta give me 3.5 ohms then "warm up" to 4 ohms.
 
Note to EI hatters.

Do Y'all see the diagnostic trouble shoot'N tree is very similar to a conventional points system. Whodathunk it :D

The good thing I can see out of EI trouble shoot'N is it weeds out the less qualified...


Cheap Tools :evil: Expensive measurement tools can be evil BTDT they all need a GOOD battery not a elcheapo battery you find at a Dollar/HF store. The test leads are also suspect I go thru a set about every 2/4 years. The good thang about a quality DMOV is it will give you some indication the Battery is low if you heed its warring. Just last week I put a DMOV on a car battery when I fired it up a very expensive meter showed 32V :shock: I put it down and grabbed another meter all was OK. The one with the bad reading needed a new battery. Having BTDT and lost a days work I pay close attention to the BAT warring display...



Brian Hang with Jessie he's the man....
 
(quoted from post at 07:41:27 05/01/17)

That resistor that came with the 12 volt kit, .... 5 ohms. So if I'd followed it's instructions and used the 12 volt coil with it, it would be 8.6 ohms. What were they smoking?
Click to expand...

... and i thought the people who make my kit were silly because of the 3.5 ohm resistor they included. apparently, tho, they hadn't smoked quite as much as the folks who made your kit.

i thought about removing the OEM resistor and coil, and just running with the 3.5 ohm ceramic blob, but i ended up deciding against it.
 
... and i thought the people who make my kit were silly because of the 3.5 ohm resistor they included. apparently, tho, they hadn't smoked quite as much as the folks who made your kit.

i thought about removing the OEM resistor and coil, and just running with the 3.5 ohm ceramic blob, but i ended up deciding against it.
Click to expand...
Yeah I just took that 5 ohm resistor off the machine, wrote "5 ohms" on it and set it aside for whatever. I doubt I'll ever need it for anything.

With the 12 volt (3 ohm) coil, wired straight to the ballast resistor, engine running, after a few minutes the ammeter would taper off to about 7-8 amps. I figure that's still too much so today I added a 0.6 ohm resistor and it started right up. Ammeter shows about 5 amps now. If I have any trouble with it in the winter I'll just bypass that extra resistor with alligator clips until it starts.
 
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