Chrome or Iron Liners? Flange .15 or .040? Perkins a3.152

FullPullLarry · Feb 17, 2019

Folks, I am getting ready to purchase liners for my 3 cylinder Perkins in my Massey 35. I pulled the head and this is what I see. The top lip on the sleeve in the center cylinder is broken and it sure looks like a small lip on the liner but what exactly am I measuring to determine flange thickness? Also, should I take a grinder to a piece of old sleeve to see if its steel or iron or is there a different way to tell? Ideally I think I would like my replacement liners/pistons/rings to be of the iron variety over the chrome plated variety. Thanks for any help.

Dieseltech · Feb 17, 2019

Can't really tell as the head gasket is in the way. Best get it apart and do some measuring of the block step. Use the correct plate to pull the sleeves to prevent any block damage. Block should be stamped CL if it came with chrome liners, main thing is to NEVER use chrome rings in chrome liners, either one can be chrome but never both. Most use the plain cast liners with chrome rings. I'd get it all apart first BEFORE ordering any parts. Maybe it was not done correctly before..

John Deere D · Feb 17, 2019

X 2 on Dieseltech.......I'd get it all apart first BEFORE ordering any parts. Maybe it was not done correctly before..

Info: That may help.....IF the past owners did not assemble and or install incorrect liners...

Engine S # Location...S # Tells you what the OEM Liners / Pistons & Rings should have been:

Bob...

FullPullLarry · Feb 17, 2019

Thank you! Actually the head gasket was removed but I guess all these years left quite the impression on the block :lol: :lol: :lol:

The engine number does not have a CL on it. When I take it apart am I measuring the distance from the block surface to the bottom of that lip around each cylinder (with the liner removed)? Or am I measuring the thickness of that ring land?

Dieseltech · Feb 17, 2019

Looking again I'd say it has the wrong sleeves, the top flange per the MF service book should be .001 to .009 inch below the block deck, yours appear to be more than that. I'd also say you have CAST sleeves, the chrome sleeves are steel, and the flange won't break off steel like cast will. With the sleeves out, the STEP thickness will help determine what sleeves you need. I'm wondering if someone put thin flange sleeves in a block that needs the thick flange sleeves. Sleeve bore is 3.6 inch, block bore is 3.6875-3.6885. I'd make the puller plate 3.670 to clear the block safely if you're going to have a plate made.

FullPullLarry · Feb 17, 2019

Puller plate came off the lathe a week ago...just waiting on the weather to cooperate before splitting her.

You are right about the depth. Where the sleeve isn't broken sure seems more than 0.009 deep. Almost seems like 1/16 or 3/32 deep. So after I pull the liner I should be measuring down from the top of the block to the step?

Skip Burney · Feb 17, 2019

I am just finishing up mine, since the lip is already broken yours will come out easily. I took a screwdriver and went right down between the liner and block and they peeled right open and I took them out with my fingers. I put .040 steel liners back by soaking them in alcohol and dry ice and an aluminum block on the liner and it tapped right in. I was sort of nervous about splitting them with a screwdriver but the liners split and came right out.

FullPullLarry · Feb 17, 2019

Yours looks correct to my eye. My liners are so short in the block. So how did you measure the block to determine which liners to get?

Skip Burney · Feb 17, 2019

I knew my old liners were correct just worn out so after I got them out I measured the lip and checked that against the block and they matched so then I was 100% sure I had the correct liners. I then measured the wall thickness of the old ones and they were .040 so I ordered new cast steel liners and pistons with rings. I was told the cast liners will break up where the chrome liners will just stretch and be harder to get out. Yours look like .040 cast steel liners

FullPullLarry · Feb 17, 2019

Looks like I need the taller 0.150 flange as well. Theres a couple things that I am unsure of on this engine. For one it had a composite head gasket that according to the manual only appeared on later a3.152 but this is a super early around 1960 tractor. I was thinking it should have had a copper head gasket.

It also had the later model non-tapered guides which I am replacing with new non-tapered guides. Perhaps someone replaced the guides before me (vertical injectors in the head btw).

The engine serial number is in the 191,000 range (no CL stamped in the block). On yesterdaystractors shop every liner for my serial number shows 0.040 and not 0.150.

Tomorrow I should be able to measure on the center cylinder that has broken away so much and see if its 0.150 deep lip or not.

rustred · Feb 17, 2019

you will have a hard time seating rings with chrome liners.

Dieseltech · Feb 17, 2019

No he won't, chrome liners MUST use plain cast rings. Chrome rings in a chrome cylinder MUST NEVER be done.

Skip Burney · Feb 17, 2019

Yep chrome rings on steel liners or steel rings on chrome liners one has got to be softer than the other for them to seat chrome on chrome will never seat. All you need to do is take a caliper and measure the depth of the lip on the block and order the right liners

John Deere D · Feb 17, 2019

As the years pass by......no one knows just what the previous owners may have done......."previous Owners Syndrome"

Bob...Owner MF FE 35 X

Dieseltech · Feb 18, 2019

His are cast, steel sleeve top flange won't break like cast does.

FullPullLarry · Feb 18, 2019

Agreed. According to the book/serial number it should have chrome liners. But also it looks to have the taller lip which just makes everything more confusing.

Skip Burney · Feb 18, 2019

If it were me I would measure the step at the top of the block and order a corresponding set of cast liners with pistons and rings and be done with it. I have gone through this many times with antique airplane engines. Do I want chrome cylinders, steel cylinders or nickel cylinders. Then you get into what kind of chrome channel chrome, cerminil and it goes on and on. If you are going to run the little tractor regularly then get cast liners if its going to sit for months on end then get chrome. If you live in Arizona get steel if you live on the coast get chrome. I`ll bet the little engine will never know whether it has chrome or cast liners in it and will run just fine for many years if you treat it right. Just my 2 cents.

John Deere D · Feb 18, 2019

On the internet enter as per below:

Perkins part number 31358308 cast iron sleeve

Perkins part number 31358308 is reported to be a cast iron sleeve that replaces the chrome sleeve in the early 3.152 with the .040" lip.

FullPullLarry · Feb 19, 2019

Before I get too deep into part numbers I need to measure the height of that flange. If the snow gods are pumpin today it might not happen until after the storm. Once I know if its a .04 or .15 tall flange I'll be back to pick your brain for part numbers.

Dieseltech · Feb 19, 2019

That's odd, A&I shows that number for the steel chrome .040 lip sleeve. He MAY also have an early block that has had the step machined for the late .150 step sleeve too and needs to measure the step for sure..

FullPullLarry · Feb 19, 2019

So the step came out to approximately 0.180 tall. I really need to clean the step and the block surface before measuring again for a perfect number but I think its safe to say that I need the 0.150 liners - correct?

FullPullLarry · Feb 19, 2019

To add: I believe the lip measured taller because there is still a dirty block surface. Once cleaned up I think it would measure closer to 0.155. I think my straight edge was also resting up on things like water jackets a little too much and they are all dirty from years of use too. Now to figure out which 0.150 liners and pistons to get.

FullPullLarry · Feb 19, 2019

Can anyone let me know what the total liner height is? I think I have found some NOS USA made liners but want to be sure they will work. They're 8 1/8" tall, 3.6" inside diameter, 0.106 wall thickness, 0.154 top flange, and 0.104 flange thickness (at the top flange measuring width-wise). I think they're the right ones but want to confirm.

Skip Burney · Feb 19, 2019

I just went out and measured one of my old liners. The depth of the step at the top of the liner is .050, the thickness of the liner at the top INCLUDING the top step is .200 and the wall thickness at the bottom of the liner is .150. I measured the step recess in the block and it matched the old liners exactly. I got everything I needed from this site. New liners, new pistons, rings, wrist pins, bearings, gaskets etc. My new liners went in and sit flush with the top of the block just fine.

FullPullLarry · Feb 19, 2019

Thank you. I wonder why my early engine has the tall step in the top of the block? Either way I won't be able to use the 0.040 liners and I'll be looking at ordering the 0.150 liners with associated rings.

FullPullLarry · Feb 20, 2019

If your wall thickness is 0.150 that would be ID of 3.6 + 0.150 + 0.150 = 3.9 ID bore in your block. Are you sure the wall thickness at the bottom is 0.150?

FullPullLarry · Feb 20, 2019

Also is there any way I could bother you to get a total liner measurement? 8 1/8" sound right? Thanks so much for the help

Skip Burney · Feb 24, 2019

Hope these help. My liners are 8 3/8 below the lip and 8 1/2 end to end. My liners are.040 and the lip is as shown

Skip Burney · Feb 24, 2019

liner lip

Chrome or Iron Liners? Flange .15 or .040? Perkins a3.152

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